Problem with rotation

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Problem with rotation

Post by potatowaffle on Tue May 19, 2015 10:54 am

Hello,

I'm having a odd problem with rotating the bones of my model. It seems that for some reason for each and every bone, when I rotate the bones around the x and z axis it does this rotation locally, but for the y rotation, it rotates it globally. I also noticed that on the rotation sliders the y axis is highlighted yellow, which seems to be different from everyone else. I messed around with the options but nothing has worked. I have googled the problem but nothing seems to come up. Are xnalara bones just suppose to rotate this way, or is there a option some where to change this and I just can't find it?

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XNA -- bone axis local vs global

Post by XNAaraL on Tue May 19, 2015 12:06 pm

1th) All bones rotate, around all axis, always locally, and the rotation is stored in what is called the World matrix..
2nd) I dislike green colors, since my school days, therefore the Y-axis is colored in yellow.

Spoiler:

If you dislike the color Green,
then you do not like to do things the way the majority does.
and you may be a loner preferring to keep to yourself than mixing with crowds.


Dislike of color Yellow?

If you dislike the color Yellow,

then you may not be able to cope with change at this point in your life
and you prefer to keep your feet firmly planted on the ground and are skeptical of new ideas.

Wink

Programmers see also [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and of course [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Code:

 Matrix worldMatrix = Matrix.CreateRotationY(angleY);
 effect.Parameters["WorldMatrix"].SetValue(worldMatrix);


Last edited by XNAaraL on Tue May 19, 2015 12:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Problem with rotation

Post by potatowaffle on Tue May 19, 2015 12:37 pm

Oh ok that makes sense. Thank you for the quick reply.
I guess thats just me not realizing this. Before XNALara I used blender and sfm, and their local rotation system thingy is a bit differently from XNALara and feels more intuitive, so I guess thats just me getting confused. It seems slightly more awkward in XNALara, but I think that's just cause I'm not used to it here.

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Red–green color blindness

Post by XNAaraL on Tue May 19, 2015 12:45 pm

I just wonder why our user then pose their models in  XNALara/XPS, and render their images using Blender or KeyShot.

BTW, seriously:
1/3 of males can not distinguish the red and the green Colors. Therefore I have changed green with yellow Wink
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Spoiler:

Protanopia, deuteranopia, protanomaly, and deuteranomaly are commonly inherited forms of red-green color blindness which affect a substantial portion of the human population. Those affected have difficulty with discriminating red and green hues due to the absence or mutation of the red or green retinal photoreceptors.[32][33] It is sex-linked: genetic red–green color blindness affects males much more often than females, because the genes for the red and green color receptors are located on the X chromosome, of which males have only one and females have two. Females (46, XX) are red–green color blind only if both their X chromosomes are defective with a similar deficiency, whereas males (46, XY) are color blind if their single X chromosome is defective.

Edit to add:
Good graphic design avoids using color coding or using color contrasts alone to express information;[51] not only helps color blind people, but also aids understanding by normally sighted people.

Designers need to take into account that color-blindness is highly sensitive to differences in material. For example, a red–green colorblind person who is incapable of distinguishing colors on a map printed on paper may have no such difficulty when viewing the map on a computer screen or television. In addition, some color blind people find it easier to distinguish problem colors on artificial materials, such as plastic or in acrylic paints, than on natural materials, such as paper or wood. Third, for some color blind people, color can only be distinguished if there is a sufficient "mass" of color: thin lines might appear black, while a thicker line of the same color can be perceived as having color.[citation needed]

Designers should also note that red–blue and yellow–blue color combinations are generally safe. So instead of the ever popular "red means bad and green means good" system, using these combinations can lead to a much higher ability to use color coding effectively. This will still cause problems for those with monochromatic color blindness, but it is still something worth considering.

When the need to process visual information as rapidly as possible arises, for example in an emergency situation, the visual system may operate only in shades of gray, with the extra information load in adding color being dropped.[citation needed] This is an important possibility to consider when designing, for example, emergency brake handles or emergency phones.

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Re: Problem with rotation

Post by potatowaffle on Tue May 19, 2015 2:27 pm

In the first sentence Im not sure whether you are asking why people render in blender/keyShot, or whether you are telling me that I should render stuff in blender. I personally like blender because it has a bigger community to help and give advice/tutorials on things. I've seen the extent of what people using blender cycles can do to images, and it looks really amazing.

And I understand the colour blind stuff now. But It's just that before I thought it was highlighted while the other two axis weren't. I didn't notice that the other two was coloured. I was looking at tutorials using older versions of XNALara and it seems that the sliders did not used to be colour coded back then. I instantly saw that in my sliders the Y axis was highlighted yellow and thought that it was odd that mine was different to theirs, so i got kind of confused.

But actually on the topic of rotations, I do feel that there is something slightly odd about the rotations in certain axis. I found that all rotations are local like you said. however, it looks like some rotations are local to the bone, while other rotations are local to the model itself. I'm messing with a arm of a model right now. If I use the X axis, It rotates the arm with the axis with respect to the whole model, rather then the arm. In my models it X and Y axis seem to rotate locally around the body of the model, while the Z axis rotate locally around the arm of the model. Not sure how to explain this properly in words. But when the arm is in certain position, sometimes rotating the Y and Z axis actually does the rotation in the same direction as each other because both of them work on a different set of rotation axis. Is this suppose to happen? It makes posing slightly more stranger then Im used to.

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Re: Problem with rotation

Post by XNAaraL on Wed May 20, 2015 8:38 am

Sorry,I don't speak English very well Sad Difficult to explain it.

I personally like blender also. I am Blender user and Blender developer since decades (since 1998) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Wink
Just wondering, because:
If posing with Blender feels more intuitive .... why so many People use XNALara for posing ... export it as wavefront .OBJ ... and make the final Render Image with Blender?
Example [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Code:
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Kira-Daidouji-533907688
Posed in xnalara, rendered in blender cycles
Why not loading the model in to Blender ... posing the model with Blender ... and render the Image with Blender ?
So I thinks, posing with XNALara is more intuitive than pose in Blender ???

Right, the "coloured highlighted slider r/y/b" highlighting exist since the "Countdown Axis Edition" (r174) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and the used Colors match with the "Bone axis can be visualized" axis/arrows ... on this way, you can recognize ... moving the (yellow) Y-Track bar ... the bone rotate around the yellow axis (3D render window)

"But when the arm is in certain position, sometimes rotating the Y and Z axis actually does the rotation in the same direction as each other because both of them work on a different set of rotation axis." ...
Right Wink This is the behavior since XNALara Version 1.0 Sad
For example:

  • If you pose the "right shoulder 2" bone +90 degree along the Z-axis

then

  • the arm react for posing like the x and the y axis are swapped Sad

A other example:

  • If you pose the "right shoulder 2" bone +90 degree along the X,Y and Z-axis

then

  • the arm react for posing like the Y and the Z axis are the same and the Y and Z  direction seems to mirrored Sad
  • The X slider ... now rotate the arm ... like you expect it for the Z slider  Rolling Eyes

I wonder about why it has not anyone bothered.
...
The XNALara file format (.mesh) contains no informations about the bone direction ... unlike the .blend format.
The model data contains only the xyz-coordinate for the bone link (Joint). Therefore rotating (local) along a bone axis is also depend of the orientation (posing) of the parent bone(s) Sad ... and the bone himself has not a own axis.
It is also very important the model is made in T-Bone pose and not in "Relaxed (T) pose", because the (non exsiting) local bone axis have to match with the global world axis  (after loading the model).
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Re: Problem with rotation

Post by potatowaffle on Wed May 20, 2015 6:31 pm

It's fine, looking at your profile I can kinda tell english isn't your first language. Either that or I have the language setting on this website on Russian.

As to why people pose in xnalara and then render in blender, I'm not quite sure of the answer myself. I do it cause that's what everyone else does. As a blender developer yourself, do you think there is a better/easier way to create these images? Although I don't know the exact reason cause I'm not really that adept at either of them, I can guess a few reasons though why people might use this method of rendering. I think the main reason is probably all the free models available for XNALara. I don't think blender has quite the same library of models of game characters, in I think in blender you more or less create your own models rather then using existing ones. Also, importing to blender from xnalara as wavefront .OBJ actually makes the model lose its armatures/bones. So going from xnalara to blender means that you lose the ability to pose the model. I don't think there is a way to put the model directly into blender without going though xnalara ( there probably is, but I don't know it ). However I have found this recently:

johnzero7.deviantart . com/art/XPS-to-Blender-2-7x-Blender-internal-the-easy-way-489500171

It looks like a way to import a model from xnalara to blender without losing the armature. I haven't tried it out but if it works maybe there is no need to pose in xnalara. But the slightly awkward posing in xnalara isn't really a big enough problem to make me want to change the way I pose my models. I'll just live with it.

I'm surprised that no one else has found the posing of these models to be a little awkward if its been like that since version 1. No one's really made a forum post complaining about it? No one is questioning why the axis moves differently to each other? I haven't seen a post with anyone talking about this, so I just assumed that it was a setting that I could just change or something. Maybe its just me not being able to get used to the posing in xnalara while everyone found it easy to use. Well, Its not a huge problem anyway. I just thought that my xnalara program was broken or had weird settings. After using a couple of modeling programs that uses similar ways of rotating bones, I just assumed that that was the universal way of doing it across all modeling/posing programs, and it just confused me a but when I found xnalara works differently. But if there is no way to change it, then I'll just live with it Smile

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Re: Problem with rotation

Post by XNAaraL on Fri May 22, 2015 7:02 am

:hug:

Rigth, there is no need to pose in XNALara/XPS, you can import the XNALara/XPS models (as .mesh.ascii) into Blender with armature. By exporting the models from Blender to XNALara, you loose some armature informations like "bone direction" (except we realize a New Geneneric File Format).

JohnZero7 makes a amazing job with his "Blender 2.7x" tools like


On our forum, you can find the "Blender 2.49" import/export scripts (without losing the armature) here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Of course, there is a way to change the posing behavior for XNALara, but nobody has ask for this (except the IK feature) ... and it needs some effort to "touch a running system". The suggestion thread on DeviantArt is there [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
And there [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is a journal about a "New and improved format for XNALara/XPS " (NGFF) ... to make everything "more easy".

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Re: Problem with rotation

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